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DAmn drive clutch!

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:44 pm

The aliens found me.....no launch tonight.

I spent all day trying to figure out my problem with low pump pressure. ACE was generous and insightful as always, but I still struck out. As a last ditch effort, I bypassed the heater completely and decided to just clean cold water.

With the heater bypassed, the pulsation reduced and I could crank the pressure up without fear of blowing out the weak coil, but the same problem existed....no matter what psi I set it at, it would drop to 200 psi and stay there with the trigger open.

I still thought that I would just try it anyway. Threw a bucket heater on the truck to make hot solution and planned on using the rotary extractor to make up for the lack of heat. Hell, it was hot enough out that even unheated water was hitting my wand at nearly 100 degrees.

Half way to the job I realized that it would not be the right move. That 200 psi is bad enough, but that was with a 50 foot hose. What will the psi be out at 250 feet? Shocked

I raised the white flag and called the client. They asked if I could recommend someone....what I was afraid of....so I promised that I would be fully operational by the end of the week and convinced them to hold off calling someone else.

Needless to say, I better not wait long. So, the nightmare continues. At least the heater did hold up to 600 psi but without heat, so who knows.

Looks like July will end up being a very bad month for me. It stings, I admit it. baby crib
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Sun Jul 17, 2016 4:40 pm

Everything goes under the knife on Monday. Both trucks WILL be fully reliable war horses by the end of the week. I will be broke, but a very well equipped broke cleaner. Very Happy

TNT is getting re-plumbed with 3/8 lines, new pump seals, new unloader valve, and a replacement heater coil. (When you can't clean, you get to repair).

Butler is getting new drive assembly and tires. (The shop is doing that one).

All wands are being over-hauled with new solution lines, spray bars, jets, glides....the whole shooting match thanks to JB.

I even decided to order all new solution hoses after seeing that much of my hoses are showing a lot of ink and starting to clog my jets.

I told myself that I would go for broke with this business and that is where I am getting faster than expected, but you have to have reliable equipment to make any money, so I am spending to make some.
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by Davey Cracker on Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:54 pm

So if you haven't already got it fixed............

And you still have a big psi drop when you key wand/put demand on the pump, and you're sure you aren't sucking air from low pressure/inlet side somewhere, and you're sure the pump is getting enough water to it, then it's the pump seals......replace them. Prior to this, it worked fine with the current plumbing, without pressure drop right? So skip 3/8" plumbing and put those seals in, 10-15 min job and you should be good.

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:16 pm

Well, this truck has barely been used. It went into service on flood jobs and some upholstery, so I really don't know if the 1/4 inch plumbing was ever a problem.

I can't find any source of an air leak, it has a full water box, cleaned inlet screen and checked hoses, and even ran descaler through it in case there were some rust flakes in the valves......problem persists.

The seals make sense, except I have never had seals go bad that didn't also create leaks. This pump is bone dry and only a few hundred hours on it. I ordered a kit just in case, but I don't know for certain if that is the problem.

As for the hose size on the plumbing, what I think might be happening is that the 1/4 line isn't carrying enough water volume. I am just not sure, but I think the 3/8 change would reduce the pump stress if nothing else, so it is worth a try.

Then there is the unloader valve. Probably not bad, but it doesn't feel like the one on my butler at all. There is very little resistance to it when adjusting and just doesn't give me any confidence so it is on the list as well.

After that, I have no idea where the flaw would be, so it should be fixed simply enough when the parts get here Tuesday.
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by Davey Cracker on Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:59 pm

I'll just speak for myself and say 1/4" has always supplied my pumps fine. Also, I've never had packing/low pressure seals (which are the ones that cause the problem you're describing), ever cause a leak when they're worn or go bad.....now oil seals are a different story, there's an oil leak when they are done.

It could also be the regulator like you mentioned (seals, plunger, or spring worn in it), or just air still trapped in the system from having it open, but we talked about that at the start, so I'm figuring you've already bled that out.

I'm not saying for sure it's the pump seals, but the symptoms sure point to that, if everything else is in order.

Even though the pump doesn't have many hours on it, doesn't mean they haven't hardened from sitting dry, and/or heat exposure from flood extraction, when the pump wasn't pushing water to keep itself cooled. My pump seals (that were "newly replaced') in my used pump that had sat awhile on the shelf after they were installed, were rock hard and useless when I installed it.

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by Davey Cracker on Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:11 am

I've also baked a set of seals by leaving my pump running for 10-15 mins while it wasn't passing water.....just like what might happen if the pump was accidentally turned on and the guy was just extracting water.

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:07 am

It could very well be the seals from sitting so long in my garage. I did keep RV antifreeze in it the whole time which is supposed to lubricate valves and seals, but it was a long time and when the heater went, it could have drained that pump dry for a few minutes.

What I do know is that it is a volume issue. I should have measured it, but I can't be getting more than 2 gpm out of it right now. The only tools that don't cause the pressure drop are my upholstery and my old single jet stair tool. Even my 4 flow stair tool kills the pressure.

I will have the seal kit here Tuesday, so I will be ready then to open it up.
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by Matt; My carpet cleaner on Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:26 pm

So my pump gauge drops about 100-125 psi when keyed open. Mech says "pumps seal are what causes it".
If I was close to you I'd sure lend you my Tm. But I'm not. Sad Sad

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:52 pm

Thanks Matt, I believe that you would.

Repairs happen, just business. I just got hit hard with both units going down at the same time for expensive and time consuming repairs while having large jobs on the schedule.

All that I can do is get everything fixed up and try and make up for it. I spent today over-hauling my wands and tools. When I get back in the game, I will be sporting lots of new stuff.

Probably break all of them too. Razz
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by brownieboy on Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:05 pm

Rough day man. We all have em but at least you bounced back. Broke but working good work!

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by Davey Cracker on Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:38 pm

You get it going today, Rob?

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:45 pm

@Davey Cracker wrote:You get it going today, Rob?

Not yet, it has been raining all day and I just received the parts. Once the storm passes, I will be on the truck.
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by Larry Henson on Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:58 pm

Rob, what year model is your Butler unit?

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:04 pm

Well, here it is. This is what I found when I pulled the pump head.







As you can see, it didn't look bad really at all. I went ahead and replaced the high/low psi seals and the seal retainer o-rings, but didn't pull the plunger bolts to replace those small o-rings. I guess I was just being lazy or paranoid with my degree of luck lately.

Despite not really seeing a problem, I have solid pressure now with only a 50 psi drop running a 12 flow wand. I don't know if it was the seals or if there was just an air pocket that was eliminated in the process, but I am good now.....with a large box of extra parts.Peace

Next up is the heater test to see if I am still working with heat. Funny thing is that not only was Davey correct, but so was Mo about becoming busy with the heat wave. I got 4 calls while working on the truck starting with an office in the morning....hopefully, with hot water, but since it will be 104 degrees, I will still be cleaning with probably 125 degree water if the heater doesn't hold up.

The parts for my Butler will be here late tomorrow and I will be able to attack that problem next.....which is good because I now have 3 houses and those 2 theaters to do this weekend. Shocked
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by Matt; My carpet cleaner on Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:08 pm

Educate me on what's in the pics. What to look for.

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:30 pm

Those are the high psi seals (1 still in the pump head and 2 still on the ceramic plungers). The low psi seals are the ones closest to the pump body.

That brass thing on the plungers are the seal retainers and there are o-ring seals on those.

What you are seeing are clean plungers with all seals still intact. Normally, they are torn or pieces missing from them when they go bad. Mine didn't show much damage at all except for some probably due to cavitation stress..

If I was any good, I should have pulled the plungers as well and replaced the small o-ring that fits between the white ceramic tubes and the cap bolt. They looked good, like everything else so I stopped there.
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by ACE Services on Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:39 am

Ok Rob after looking at the pictures and reading what you were looking for with torn apart seals is not always the case. If you look at the first pic that you posted, look at the seals closely you will see that it has a inter and outer lip. There is a spring inside around the inter lip to help keep it in contact with the plunger. When the plunger pulls back it pulls in water when it goes forward the water pressure spreads the outer lip so that it doesn't leak and seals with plunger so that you get water pressure overtime the seal will get hard and not open. If you look at the pictures of your seals they have closed up and most likely have gotten hard so even though they're not tearing apart they were not sealing properly.
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:33 am

I learn something new every day....thanks for the education. Peace
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by Davey Cracker on Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:53 am

Once I saw the picture of the seals, I didn't even need to read the text.......next time, you'll know. Smile Glad you got that done and behind you. Consoling

As I mentioned and thought very possible, those seals were absolutely fried, toasted, baked, and spanked from over heating.

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:20 am

It sure happened fast then.....well, actually, it probably happened before I got it, just like the heater repair.  For a machine with such low hours, the original owner must have been hell on his equipment.

Things are looking good today, the new shaft and clutch just arrived!  The UPS guy was pissed and asked me if it was a tank turret or something? Very Happy





The only hurdles will be time and belts.  I actually expected to see new drive belts, but not so lucky.  I couldn't find anyone that had them in stock last time either, but I did find some automotive fan belts that fit the last time.

I don't know how long fan belts would last on that pulley (the fire stopped the clock at 60 minutes the last time), but it might be my only option.

I couldn't get anyone to help me on the van and this is a 2 man job really screwing with this shaft so I took it to the local auto shop.  He is also alone this week and behind on most of his jobs, but will get to it today and stay tonight if needed.  I will be chasing belts and then giving him a hand later.

With fingers crossed, the butler should be back in the rotation tonight!!
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by Matt; My carpet cleaner on Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:40 am

Oh, its a bouncing baby drive shaft. Proud, anxious papa!
X'ing fingers for ya!

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by Matt; My carpet cleaner on Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:43 am

"The UPS guy was pissed and asked me if it was a tank turret or something? "

Usually they just slap the yellow note on the door and say, "You come pick it up at the terminal".

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:33 pm

@Matt; My carpet cleaner wrote:"The UPS guy was pissed and asked me if it was a tank turret or something?  "

Usually they just slap the yellow note on the door and say, "You come pick it up at the terminal".

He tried, but I was waiting at the door this time. Razz

We might be close, ran around all day looking for belts....have new ones being sent here in the morning, but might have found an alternate as well. Still keeping my fingers crossed.
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:49 pm

Everything is replaced, found the belts in 2 different cities, runs like new.

I am back in the ring and ready to take some more punches!!

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by Larry Henson on Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:47 pm

Rob I'm going to look at a95 or 96 Butler tomorrow. I have no use for the pto shaft . If I buy it you are welcome to it for a backup.

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

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