Heat Booster

I have had this idea floating around in my head for a long time and finally put it together. A member on another forum was asking so I basically put it out there for someone to do but nobody took the leap so I made one.
Here is some pics of what we put together.
We are going to make another unit that will pre heat your carry on water 100 gallons or more if you carry it as you DRIVE to work. We are going to try and set it up so it has a temp control to set what you want to preheat your carry on water to..90,100,120,140* It is going to be awesome for guys in colder climates.
This is a pic of the one I am running on my PC Legend. Super simple to hook up. It is working awesome. It just boosts the cold incoming water only, it is not under any major pressure so it is super safe. NO EXTRA FUEL once the unit is bought that is it no propane no diesel no belly tanks just a little bit of hose to connect it.
Mine is running after my HX and my exhaust temps are around 200-250* so High temp rubber hose is all that I needed to hook it up.
It is just a booster not a heater so we are working with a lot lower temps to boost the water but so far it is working really really well. Been using it for about a week now.
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Here is a video, my PC L has never been super great with heat and I can easily out work the heat it can produce and even when I try and keep my pace it can easily go down to 160-170 range ATW. In the winter months I have always hooked to hot water if it is easily available to help with my heat production, so I just took that idea and went to Tim and told him I just want to be able to supply my TM with warmer water to help give it a chance to build some heat...well this was how it was doing on the empty job Friday

Man, that was what I was trying to do by heating my water with a splitter off my heat exchanger back to the fresh tank. It helped me get another 10-15 degrees at the wand, but nothing like what you are getting.

Give me some more information on that set-up. I run a butler, so heat sources are limited, but it looks like a good concept for the tnt.

Mil
I tried that trick also but the problem is the water keeps moving through the HX system. It helped but not as much as I wanted. It seemed to raise the water box temps to better numbers but the final heat didn't seem be as much as I was thinking it would be.
I think it really has to do with the water not staying in the HX and always flowing.
The booster has opened up a lot of ideas, Tim and I are shooting things back and forth right now in fact.
This one I have is running after my HX, but now think if a guy was running a fuel type burner and NO HX like me.
He hooks this to his engine exhaust HE WOULD GET HOTTER WATER than I am but now HOW MUCH FUEL would he save by not having to heat water from 40* range ????
This is really cool because it would help in all heating conditions, and once it is purchased that's it no more cost.
The other thing is YES I could still out clean the heat production it is NOT a heater but I cleaned at my normal pace and it made a big difference and the heat recovery was VERY GOOD. When I got it down to 180* I thought for sure I was on my way to even lower temps but the heat picked back up very well. This was going across a empty living room, normally I would have been down in 170* range easily and pacing my self to get my heat back so I am super happy with it.
Also On occupied homes it will just ADD even MORE because of the flow is not as much. I will keep you all posted. I think my temps will get even better or at least stay in 180-200 range as I get more tuned to the pace of it.

Sounds really interesting.....180-200 is exactly where I want to be. During the winter, I sometimes end up around 165...still cleans, but want better.

Is that a small heat exchanger in front of the machine ?

dp1 wrote:Is that a small heat exchanger in front of the machine ?

To answer Yes it is in a way a heat exchanger. But it is not HIGH pressure. I measured the exhaust temps coming out of my PC Legends heat ex and it hoovers around 180-200*
In the past I have always hooked my tm to hot water supply when needing better heat. So we came up with a way to "BOOST" the incoming water temps to "HELP" the ehx get the temps a bit higher.
So to think of it a little better is more like a pre-heater.
I have wanted to do this project for a while now but the filters just took so much time and money I could not move on to another till they were finalized.
I did not want to have to add a whole extra heating system (propane little giant) to my system. I just needed a boost like I would get from hooking to hot water tap.
Something very easy to hook up, would work for just about anybody that was having the same needs. The most important to me is NO ADDED COST to get it. I don't want to have to think about other fuels and if I need to go and fill them up.
It is not going to turn your machine into a VORTEX or a FUEL burning beast!! Now I have only been using it for about a week or two and it is helping, I could easily out clean its production..I still only have a PC Legend, but if I clean like I normally do it is making MUCH MUCH better heat, and the heat pick up is MUCH faster, in other words if I get a little carried away with my speed it is gaining it back much faster than before.
I have a lot of empty work and I have always suffered with heat production with the PC L, there are many times I was dipping down to 165* or less even, now this is from me out cleaning the machine production rate, this last week most of my work I was using my Roto Vac, and Roto eats water so I was not to sure of my results.
The video above was on a job where I was able to use my wand and never once on that job did it ever go below 180* it was holding 190-200 ATW.
This was really the first real sign of me seeing the results and it is working. Most of the time I waas getting that "POP" when I triggered the wand....My Legend never gets that but this whole job went that way, I can't wait to try it on Monday I have a full day with two BIG houses where it will give me a much better feel compared to what I have had.
I will say I don't use my Roto Vac a lot in fact it has been over 6 months where I had to pull it out, but this new account we just started was all poly carpet and the wand just didn't touch the soil load so all I was using was the RV, but I can say my water was very hot, hotter than I remember, even had steam rising from carpet fibers as I cleaned, considering the houses where all set at @ 80* on there thermos (hoter then Hell when you are working) this was a good sign of improvement.
I will post my results after Monday to let you know how it does.

I would also like to say I don't believe you have to have 200*+ heat to clean carpet, I think 180-200* is plenty, more than enough really. Higher than 200* starts to cause problems with QD's,hoses,burn marks in carpet and floors.
I did buy a propane burner but took it out because it took up more room, made a POOP load of heat in my van, and it makes me nervous sorry but it does, I had it blow out so I went out to re light it and about burned my eyebrows off.
It started to leak (it was used when I bought it) due to a previous repair so I just took it out and junked it.
Back on track...
Okay what I am looking for is to be able to STAY @ 180-190* I like that temp. If I can stay around these temps I will be SUPER happy, 190* is hot enough to melt gum and I have a big Sports Bar and it has gum being able to just melt it off is great.
I would also like to add my wand is 8 flow...not high but not low either.
Like I said I will keep you all posted on how it is doing as I get a bit more time on it.

Oh it heats the incoming water huh?.....interesting.

But aren't you concerned about the pump seal life or pump damage running hot water threw it?

I'd like a heat boost, but not at my pumps expense.......so I'd be looking at boosting the water after the pump.

Dave,
I wouldn't put it out there if I know it is going to damage guys pumps. You are talking about 40-45* water going to over 140* It hasn't come close to that. Also my WB has thermal valve of 180* on it.
I do know even guys that run propane would agree that heating water that is @100* is going to save on fuel over heating from 40-45*
I am not selling it yet I am still testing but so far it is doing what I had hoped for.
I have always hooked to hot water and have never had any issues with my pump, I haven't rebuilt it but one time only cause I let it freeze about a month after I bought my rig (NEWBE MISTAKE) My pump is seven years old. But it is a CAT PUMP.
I have been using it for a good week so far the water I would say gets to temps that you could say not to refreshing to drink...but not burning hot.
So far it is awesome and can't wait to use it tomorrow and get some more time on it.

I also think that we get mixed input about what temps a pump can handle, not saying high heat is okay, but tm companies that run propane or fuel burners always make a big deal about pump water and temps and how bad they are....but most TM's are pumping hot water with the pumps, many many tm's over the years have been made with hx systems and they all circulate hot water. For the amount that due pump warmer water if it was really really bad I think we would hear more about it, and they would have done away with it due to pump failure and cost of them to fix the problems under coverage.

Hey Tom, I'm sorry in advance for asking a dumb question, you kept saying it's virtually no expenses, except for fittings and hoses, but that small heat exchanger cost at least a couple hundred bucks, isn't it ?
And another thing I was thinking is if you need more heat, that legend should have a heat bypass solenoid that goes to waste tank ? If you re route that line to the WB, you'll definitely increase that water temperature in the WB and it seems cheaper and easier to do ?

I have done that already, the problem is it makes the water move through the system and yes you gain heat but it doesn't let the water stay in the HX so you start to raise the water in the WHOLE system. The water needs to sit in the hx to really gain the temps
I tried both divert and Bypass valves.
I put HX High heat bypass back because it was shooting 230- 250* water back into box and that is too hot even for my pump.
If it is going to go into waste tank due to too high of heat I would rather it shoot it into my vac port than into my water box and subject pump to that much heat and rely on thermal wb valve to open. That is kinda risky to subject pump to that much temp.

I find this interesting as I desire the same consistent heat and suffer the same issues trying to achieve it with a hx system.

That being said, I struggle with 2 point.

1. I've found that heat exchangers can defy logic. You may not expect it, but I actually get far better heat by increasing the amount of water leaving the hx. I don't want to hold it in the hx longer, I want to move it away in larger volumes.

I switched my butler to a 12 flow wand from a 6 flow and my heat increased greatly. The water spends less time in the hx, but moves a greater volume of heated water.

Same went for the plumbing, larger hoses increased heat to the wand. Just consider those bypass valves on my wands, I can leave them open at idle and my hoses will be untouchable in a minute or two.....full flow brought more heat.

2. I don't think there is a real number for the maximun heat that a CAT pump can handle on the inlet side. My manual says that the max is 160 degrees, but my factory rep. told me it was more like 190 with good seals.

The pump that can't handle the heat very well is that small transfer pump from your fresh tank to the slide-in tm (if your system uses one). If your system uses one, I wouldn't try and boost the water temp much higher than 85-90 degrees.

I do like this idea Tom, keep us in the loop, but I am still in the school of greater flow = better heat.

Mil I think that the faster it leaves the HX consistently then the colder it would be because of less time to heat up.   Its a balance, cant leave the HX too fast, but also cant sit in the pressure line too long or it just cools off and energy is wasted.

Increasing your flow is increasing heat because water isnt sitting in the pressure line as long.    100ft of solution hose actually holds a lot of water which is going to cool down really fast in Nebraska temps so even if its sitting in the HX for a long time its diminishing rapidly without a high flow wand running.  

6 flow would take a long time to clear the water in the line,  probably half a room or more and then the new hot water isnt making it to the wand while its hot.  

We went up to 12 flow and it was also a huge increase in heat from 7.5 flow.      Sometimes I break out the low flow wand when we do area rugs so I dont have to mess with the temps on the LG,   I just know that the low flow isnt going to get that hot

Good point....I do like the idea of boosting the fresh water. They do make a tankless water heater that runs off a standard outlet. I was really look into that as an option as they are cheap ($120), but there output is pretty low.

maybe just try insulating the pressure line for the winter, I bet it would make a difference at the wand.

would be interested if someone made a coil that wraps around the van exhaust pipes and just exchanges water in the on board tank while you drive. just copper pipe coiled around the van exhaust and a small pump to keep it circulating, would probably get a water tank temp up pretty high

Ive been using CWE lately

Okay I took a temp of how heat booster is working, as you can see the temp is just over 100*.
I took temp of my BLOWER Exhaust it is 155*
I took temp of my incoming water from House 45*
So what is happening is that Now my BLOWER HX is not having to preheat water from 45*
The BHX is much more of the pre heat factor, yes I do have a little bleed off from the main HX that is a very tiny jet in the bypass manifold,but the majority of the pre heat is from the blower.
So by adding the booster it is raising the water to a VERY safe level and really helping with the heat pick up.
You may ask about the rubber hose...the exhaust is not crazy hot you can hold onto the rubber hose with your hand it wont burn you so the rubber hose will hold up fine to the temps that are going through it.
My Truck Mount is sitting around 230 constant,
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Interesting....definitely helps to warm up that incoming water. I just have to find a way to work with my butler unit...not a lot of heat sources to choose from in the van.

Milspec,
The really cool thing is Tim my Fabricator is REALLY wanting to branch into this industry.
His quality is unbelievable, his cost kinda reflects that and I have explained this to him, and he is working on finding a way to try and fit into the cc's income bracket....It is much lower than the wine industry that is for sure.
But the cool things is he loves this kinda stuff, making a blower heat exchanger is NOT out of the question.
What kinda temps do you get from the butler?? It is running off of vans water temps yes? So you can't get much more than 190* from that I would speculate correct. I mean you are limited to the van and what a safe water temp is for it correct?
I honestly don't see how you could get much more than that unless they are really chocking down the blower exhaust.
But your MAIN HX system is producing a max temp of what? With fuel the burn temps are 1100* range.
So what are you getting at the wand at 100' away?

I run my butler with a special 200 degree thermostat and will get 205 at the machine, which isn't all that bad. My working temps atw generally runs around 170 at my working distances (150 ft), but can drop down to 160 at the longer runs of 200+.

As long as I feather things with the bypass on my wand, I can normally get my temps back up to 170 on the longest runs, but that is about it.

I am not a huge heat guy for cleaning, but there are times when I wish I had more to work with. Especially during the winter cleaning unheated store fronts that might be down to single digit temps. Then I struggle to hold 140 degrees.

I am just not a fan of adding a propane heater to this van due to space limitation and look forward to running out of the box truck this Spring. I just might keep this van in reserve this Summer and find a newer Butler with the Max Heat option going into the winter.

If I was able to pull another 10 -15 degrees atw, I would be happy.

you could just run the butler in the summer and the TNT with propane in the winter

ACpower1 wrote:you could just run the butler in the summer and the TNT with propane in the winter

Actually, my plan was just the opposite. Butlers might be the best winter set-ups in the industry as you can keep the doors closed to protect from freezing. A modern Butler with the Max heat would be ideal, but that same option can be created by others to accomplish the same thing.

I plan on shopping for a late model unit by next fall and just keep this one in reserve this Summer.

Just a little update on how the booster is working. I have been using it for a while now, and I have gotten in sync with it, I think we all kinda figure out timing with our machines and it then kinda sets our pace. It has really made a big improvement I am cutting through the grime and gum much better.
I will have to say the pump does have to be made to handle hot water.
The other thing is my TM ATM before would always drop down below 160 now it seems to be staying @200-230 even on empties.
If I lose a pump I will report back but so far all is good, my water box is @ 140* still well below my 180 relief valve.