Poll on code of conduct

I want to get an idea of what the members think about what transpired on that zipper thread.

Open forum...open minds.

I have no problem with spirited discussion nor do I have a problem with a member calling things the way they see it. I just prefer that it be done in a professional manner.

make me a mod I will take care of it no questions asked! Give me the nuke button  

milspec6 wrote:Open forum...open minds.

I have no problem with spirited discussion nor do I have a problem with a member calling things the way they see it.  I just prefer that it be done in a professional manner.

You know, even tho I voted "no", I do agree!

But the thing is, I don't see it productive what so ever, I seriously doubt from the looks of it that anything good will be accomplished by it, no different than arguing with my Ex!!   

I confronted Erik with very clear, pointed questions yet all he could say was "F-you."

Heck yes we need these discussions else how else will you find out what kind of character we're dealoing with backing these products?


Of course we could do it like Bob & MB & TMF do it, invite instigators, then castrate manufacturers for defending themselves.

Or have you forgotten all that MO?

Moe, is it true you removed Eric's post about the floater missing parts and stuff?

On the poll, personal attacks should never be allowed.  I can't believe how fast people turn on each other.

Yes. because the insinuation was that parts were missing on the cleaners lounge floater and it was actually a a mboard floater.

Thanks Moe, sorry, I edited my post. You are just doing your best at damage control.

"you publicly insulted him first."
No. I publically exposed him for wanting to take credit for something he's not.
He's not one with the beer man's model.  IS HE?
Are you so blinded by the love of the wand that you can't see the truth?

He had no right doing that because he's clearly the exact opposite.
This is not my opinion. this is based on facts. I spelled out several.
Bill, I was hoping you'd apologize for making the association before knowing these facts.
Did you notice he had not one word of explanation, just F-you.

"Why do you care who he sells too?"
I don't... until, unless I see RCs getting mislead, deceived lied to.
You don't respond to the Qs I asked you. Do it now.
Did he lie to you or not?

If he uses your message, knowing full well it's not him, then he deceiving anyone who believes it his him.
The fact he never told you that he plans to dumb it down with overseas manufacturing is no excuse for you to continue wearing those blinders.
Bill, your attitude is exactly what I hoped to avoid in these Floaters. You love it so much you will defend it and him even in light of facts contrary. I asked you to keep your words to yourself but you didn't.
No more Floaters for you.   

Now if Erik had said something like... ya know Bill, I'm nothing like that guy and I don't want anybody thinking I am. I have my own way of doing things. I'm not that guy....
I'd have laughed and then responded with, I luv you Erik. At least you're honest. You have a good machine and enough guys will know it soon enough.
But of course he didn't say anything like that. He lunged at the opportunity to make himself look like someone else., didn't he?
So I confronted him. Hell yes.

I'd have done that with anybody ... that's just my purpose ... helping cleaners. In this case, I confronted a manufacturer who I believed was intending to deceive cleaners. The proof is in the pudding.
Where is his defense?????

IMO Erik has the same retail rip-off mentality of most regular suppliers... money, money, money.
He actually thought he was gonna get $2500 out of cleaners for a wand. He did it because that's what the regular suppliers claim they needed to make.  Not one of them sold it for that.  Hell only a few would even touch it and those that di, did it on consignment or sold it for much less.  I went along with it just because I wanted so badly to get the machine onto the hands of cleaners who I thought could benefit from it the most. I know dozens of guys borderline crippled.

Is your Q inferring I tried to control him? Are you serious? I never Q'd who he wanted to sell to. I questioned how he went about it. Do you understand?

Now that Erik can't make $2500, he drops the price to unload the ones he has, then plans to dumb it down with overseas parts & manufacturing.  
I ask you Bill.. Did Erik tells you any of this? Or was he badgering you for more & more testimonials. Are his actions anything like what Beer Man would do?

Since price was the big issue, I encouraged him to set it wherever he wanted to for exactly that reason: so he & I both could sell it to whoever we wanted to.  OK?
Even when he dropped the price I went with it. I let him do whatever he felt comfortable with it.  He musta raised it and dropped it a dozen times over the last 6 months.
I suggested he do it the way some other manufacturers do it ... set up suppliers then go in their area and undercut the suppliers they set up.
Erik liked that so much he had me explain it to his wife. LOL.

Money, money money.
Is that the focus of Beer Man Bill?

I'm moving these threads back to the zipper thread

Joe, its a great tool, incredible quality, and I don't feel Eric deceived me. I don't care what his business model is. I try to avoid box stores and and big box stores as much as possible. But it is not always possible. I like to support small independent business as much as I can, but its not always possible. I only wish Eric the same success I wish you!

Ok, so you exposed him first. Publically. Great. I stand corrected. Move on. Life's too short!   

"Ok, so you exposed him first. Publically. Great. I stand corrected. Move on. Life's too short! Smile"

Thank you.

Now let's recall why I asked everybody to refrain from commenting until the Float was done.
I explained the reasoning in the beginning. You at least went with it.
Now you all seem to have forgotten the reasoning so let me refresh you.
Let's do it with a Q.

Q. for all of you... Have you ever cheated on a test or wanted to? Have you tried to look at another student's test paper. Have you?
I know I have. If you can honestly say you haven't, I bet you have at least been tempted to. Admit it to yourselves at least.
The point is, you allowed yourself to be influenced by someone you probably hardly even know.
This is a problem.

From talking to cleaners for years, as a group, I've noticed you're so easily influenced.
I am too. I admit it. It's only scientific review that a lot of Qs get answered, start to make sense, result in a meaningful conclusion.
This is what I had hoped for the Floater Program.

Take the more obvious effect - the Convention. A Crowd following Crowd behavior, all agreeing cuz the last guy did. No wonder they're free. Sheez the manufacturers of these new & unproven POSs couldn't dream up a more effective scheme of deception. After 2 minutes you got guys saying Oh yeah, that's nice. How much is it? Oh OK. So do you want it. Well I guess so since you're throwing some free stuff with it. Yeah man. Hook me up. How bout you? Well yeah. You haven't even reviewed it yet you're saying ok too based what a total stranger decided after 2 minutes of careless review. Unbelievable but true. Happens at every "show" doesn't it?
Like a play and you are the little actors playing out your part.

Not til you get it out in the real world do you realize, oops.

It's ridiculous some of the things I hear. Totally wrong, but some cleaner said it, another repeated it, then all of the sudden it's true.
Nope. Still wrong. No matter how many yes men said yes, it's still false.
Crowd followers. Popularity contests. Casual places where everybody comes to the same stupid conclusion.
Nobody did their homework so they all flunked the test.

Now we have the Float.
We invite those who actually want to be involved, who WANT it to work well for them, who are psychologically set up to say yes I like it. After all who wants to admit they're wrong? So we get a bunch of premature yes's .
A bunch of guys listening to the last guy, motivated to say yes because the want the answer to be yes when in fact the answer is no. Not for everybody, just the poor schmuck who made the mistake of listening to all the yes men. Cheaters.
Cheaters is what I wanted to avoid.

Would it surprise you that 3 lout of 3 of the guys I asked to take a look, all 3 said nope, don't like it
Would it surprise you all?
Welcome to the real world.
Wait, it's 4 actually. One guy bot it. It sat there. His techs wouldn't even use it. I ended up giving gthe guy his money back. Sent it to a guy who I was sure would love it.
Hi initial review, "ell I like it but.... (he dare not say anything negative for fear he'd hurt my feelings, since he knew I wanted him to love it) .... well it's gonna take some getting used to."
Holy crap. I was floored. Oh well. We will see what he thinks in a month or so.

So it's a double whammy with the request for the refrain.
The guys who want it work out are compelled to say they like it (another reason I don't give out free samples, you're compelled to lie!)
The neutral or negative guys are compelled to keep quiet.
Exactly what happened here.
When the beauty could have been - everybody did their own work, took the test, submitted your own paper at the same time the others did, all free of bias. Beauty was killed today. Individual objective reviews were thrown away. Lost. Today.

With premature reviews, all 100% positive, who would ever disagree? Who would ever say, well, ummm I'm sorry guys but I really didn't like it. Well maybe a completely honest & open guy like Ken Raddon, might, but who else?
Even my POS filter... I had to twist your arm to tell me about the problems. Eventually it's all better but no thanks to the milktoast yes men.

I'm here to tell you that I am ashamed of those of you who broke my request to refrain.

Mo just called, I explained all this to him. He got it. He said, Dude you need to talk to me more.
But Mo had already made the decision; the mistake. No way to back up now. Mo, you opened the floodgates of bias. So here we go.

I bet not a one of you would care to hear what the other 50% of users had to say, the UNBIASED few.
Man, you guys. What did you think; that I was out to hide the reviews from you; that I was trying to fool you or deceive you? Did you think I deprive you of your right to speak your mind?
I really don't get it.

All I know is how easily cleaners are influenced and how unlikely they are to admit they made a wrong decision.
I know about bias and crowd behavior, you guys remind over and again why it would be a mistake to teach you to trade. You'd lose it all in a hurry to the very types who put on trade shows. They'll look you right in the eye and lie their Asses off just to steal a few bucks.

Mo also called to tell me to cool it.
Sorry guys, but I am me.
You will never change that.
If I see a lie or a cheat I will expose him. I can't help it.
Deal with or get rid of me.
And THIS is the reason for my long post here.
You ALL get to decide my fate here.

There's about twenty of you regulars here.
I want to see a minimum of 20 responses to a Poll.
The Poll is real simple, do want me here or do you want me gone?
Real Simple. Know that if you keep me I will be as 'rude' as Erik says I am.
It won't bother me if you say Go, just please tell the truth.
Can you all do that?

Mo says it was the F word that got you to PMing him.
Seriously?
Are you guys that delicate?
I guess we've created a place where only the fun & games goes on. Oh yeah, it's the Lounge, relax.
Don't stir things up. Don't confront.
Screw that. It's not me at all.
My whole existence in the supply world has been focused on solving problems, not ignoring them.
If you guys can't handle that, tell me. It's perfectly fine. Do it. Tell me. You won't hurt my feelings. Do it now. A Poll. Do you want me here or gone? Set it up Mo.
'
Get this message out there MO.
Statistically, we don't even reach anything vakliod til 30 or more samples but I'll settle for 20, no ldess.
Do I go or do I stay?

Stay

I don't want you gone and I know how you are and I don't expect you to change. I started this poll to see what the forums opinion is on the subject of distributors cursing. being unprofessional and airing their dirty laundry on the forum. Like Rob said it felt like your parents were fighting and it made you feel bad.

There are some people that love the drama. Heck this whole thing has been great for the forum stats. We had 68 people logged in at the same time yesterday checking out the big show.

I understood why you made the decision to withhold all comments from the people who evaluated the Zipper but I still don't agree with it. Giving our opinion on products is what we do best.

When you sent me the filter to test. I posted  video of it leaking and not being able to take the cuffs off the ports. When you sent me new VT12 I posted a picture of it scratched and a video of a pin hole in spray bar springing a leak. You addresses the issues and made improvements to the products. That's how it worked.

Now that this floater program is over we need to hear from the people that tested it.

Stay.

Stay

Bye the way Joe I had to end the official zipper floater loaner program because now the objectivity is completely out the window.

You can't send this tool out for evaluation now.

Hey cleaner this is Joe. I want you to give me your evaluation on this tool. Bye the way the inventor of this tool is a lying, back stabbing. greedy sell out.

Everybody knows I thrive on input. That's how I get my bugs worked out.
Obviously you be secretive and sweep problems under the rug and you get an even bigger pile of problems.
I've asked probably every one of you at one time to 'let me now if there's any problems.'
So many times it has morphed into just 'lemme know.'
I don't even recall your VT problems Mo but I've heard them all plenty and I do my best to head them off before it's a problem. No don't doubt we got yours fixed.

Now, I just wrote a small book above here on the problems with prematurely posting reviews.
You get the 'want it to work guys' leaning towards the positive review, going on and on and the negative review guys wanting to crawl in the nearest hole, not wanting to say a thing in fear of retaliation from the hip crowd. Or the shame of having to admit they screwed up. Of course you were the one who prematurely pulled the plug on objectivity, so it doesn't surprise me that you'd be the one trying to argue that it was the right thing to do, sweep honest reviews albeit negative under the rug. You didn't even know what you were doing. I get that. You did it because you were feeling pressure from the positive people who wsere feeling pressure from Erik. I get that. But still you killed the whole thing.
Do you think any of the people who didn't like the Zipper will ever come here and speak up now Mo?
Who will tell their story Mo?

Who's gonna bother to write the review for the guy in Michigan, who tried it first, who did maybe two jobs with and simply said "I don't like it." I spent the time finding out why and they were all valid points but will he come here, tell his story, and save lots of real cleaners the same negative experience?  He's an AT guy who definitely knows the trade; been at it for over 30 years. Big and strong at 49, he was trained by Ed York and tells great stories like the one about how he spent 3 days getting his first Powermatic set up with Ralph Boss and Steve McMillan. Who spends 3 days getting a guy lined out these days? Nobody. Erik didn't even want to hear about the guy or his concerns. Erik turned down another guy right there near him who was all ready to buy, just wanted a second look, but Erik said NO.  I was the guy wanting to get him that second look. I even promised him he'd get it but Erik said NO! So he bought a Trex instead. The last words I heard out of the guy were, "but that's not what you told me." Would Erik ever tell that story. No. Because Erik thinks like a supplier: don't trust anybody, they'll just tear it up. Erik's been against the Floater program from the beginning for this very reason.
Will he ever admit it? Not a chance. This is the Erik I know. Would Bill be writing any review at if I had not taken a loss to get him a Zipper. Not a chance. That's Erik. But from the time these guys get it, at my expense, Erik is on the phone seeking testimonials for his own damn self. Deny it Erik.
Makes sense that he'd take it away from me. Heck, I'm the guy who wanted to give it an honest review. Sweep, sweep.

But once it got going, Erik was all over getting it to Ryan. He said bypass all the other guys, Ryan will probably do a video. That's all Erik wants, huh Erik?  That's way better than giving it to two guys right there in your own area. Neither one of them wouldsa given you a video. They would have only given it a fair review. Screw them. Let's get the video!
Oh boy. Sweep, sweep.

How bout the guy before them all ... another serious veteran, up in Canada, builds his own truckmounts. Was gonna let me send it but looked at the Zipper website, and an hour later called to cancel.  Let's not even mention that guiy, sheez he may have some valid points too like where the heck am I gonna put it it? He had a whole list of other points ya'll will never hear.  I think I kinda messed this one up telling the truth, passing on what Erik told me (secretly) "sure if it's not too dirty we just use the Tianium."  So the guy is looking at the two VT14s he'd just bought from me and cussing the two EVO16s he'd just paid over twice as much for and said, "I love your wands man. If it's real bad I'll just pull out my scrubber then hit it with the VTs. Besides, I'd have to buy two of those things, and that's 5 grand, and no space to put them, and less than 5 minutes to dig them out, no thans." I'll keep these lightweight Titaniums." Who's gonna tell this guy's story Mo?  Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.

You think there's gonna be veterans just ike him who make the purchase only to regret it later?
Yep. Time to give the Nuke button to Brevik. We can't be letting these guys tell their stories can we?
We only want positive reviews. You betcha. Btw Brevik, these guys use 2" wands, not the 1.5" you're always promoting.  

How bout the guys in Missouri who just got through with it. A unanimous, "Get outa here with this thing"
"Awkward" "Cumbersome " "Way slower than the PMF Ti you sold us..." And the most honest line of all... "We really wanted it to work out cuz you've never steered us wrong."
Will we ever hear about the "frustration" his techs experienced? Nope. They got the broom. Seep, sweep. All Erik had to say was he's a great guy isn't he. I called him. Afterwards it was so when is Ryan gonna get it?

Hey Bill, is Beer man a man of secrets or is he an open book?

It never came up in all this the fact that this guys side plates showed up cracked to pieces. Weather? who knows, but a  problem soon to be fixed so others won't have to experience. Thanks to the Floater Program. The new jet system - totally redone, thanks to yours truly.  5 years of out there. Did Cintas solve it? Are you kidding?  You'd have thought Erik would have solved it but nope. It took me and 2 weeks of the Zipper Floater Program to fix it.  Would it have ever gotten  fixed? Who knows. Did Erik give me credit or did he keep it a secret? Sweep, sweep.

Next two guys are both 'want it to work guys' or 'I will want to become a distributor' guys kinda like the guys all around Dustin who wanted a free ride with no contribution.  Expect positive reviews. Ryan, you'll get a call from the man himself, hey Ryan, think WE can get a video buddy? You betcha.  

Let's hope Erik never gets so depressed again that he pulls the plug on all the effort I've made promoting his wand like he did when he took it away from me the first time to give it Cintas. Oh wait, he just did tae it away, again.
So much for honest reviews from honest cleaners. Sweep, sweep.

Remember this Mo. Do not put words in my mouth. You're the one calling him a liar. Backstabber? Yes Erik has done his share of that to me. Witnesses abound.  
But it's the secrets that have done this thing in. And it's you who let it happen.

Look at Erik's new business partner, the same guy who Mikey got in bed with, the same guy who repeatedly told Mikey to keep it quiet. Problems never get fixed.
Of course when the money dried up Mikey went public, ending the secrecy. One of the few things I'm proud of Mikey for btw. He's not a liar either just hid the truth.
Not a whole lot of difference though is there when unsuspecting cleaners are walking of the cliff one after another.

One of the many reasons you guys need me. I've made all these mistakes. When I got in bed with the big boys the first people to call me were the I told you so people... Joe you can't get bed with these people without catching something. Sure enough these were the first people to call me when it was over... I told you so. Of course I've been openly telling this story ever since, trying to save you guys from the mistakes I made in dealing with people with secrets. Open book I am.

Eric never asked me to write a review or post a review. Yes my review is full of praise, but it's honest. I also mention repeatedly it's not for everyone and I would be surprised if 50% of the people like it. The analogy I used was that it's rustic French bread and not wonder bread. It is not a tool for masses. I could see however large companies putting it on their top 5 trucks that service the cream of the crop customers.

Just to clarify. Moe asked me to post the review. He said it was time. That is what we agreed to do if we took part in the loaner program.

If all these guys who hated it won't post their reviews then they are not honouring the conditions set out to participate in the loaner program.

If one positive review prevents negative reviews then something is seriously wrong with the participants.

On all review sites, you will always see a few negative reviews mixed in with the positive. That's normal.

So here's a message to you guys who are too afraid to post your negative reviews of the zipper. Do it! We need balance and negative reviews help others determine if they want to go ahead and even try the product.

Also, for those who missed the loaner, I believe I saw on Eric's site that he has 30 day trial. Try it.

Here are the guys that like it so far:

So far I like it (bought one).

CleanTech post here liked it (said he will buy one after he adds a new truck)

Dennis liked it and (bought the loaner).

The guy in Winnipeg Canada Boy posts here, bought one before the loaner and posted here that he will NEVER use his wand again and mostly does residential.  

Mike H, posted here how much he loves it and bought two.

Not sure if the Cleaning fool is still here, but he also raves about it.

I'm mobile. I can't vote.

I don't mind the banter. It's entertaining at times actually. I'll even call a guy and say, "You're a complete low life piece of trash, but I need to order..."

I've also come to find that the carpet cleaning business is saturated with insecure, overly sensitive, and outright arrogant personalities. They are found in almost every profession, but it seems to me that carpet cleaners have much more than their fair share.

I post this, completely ignorant of the "zipper thread" because I've not read it. I'm moving away from the truckmount.

I say, let people have the freedom to be completely transparent, and let others have the freedom to draw their own conclusion.

I've been wrestling with this all morning.  What should the response be to all this?  

I've told the story before about what I was told as a young man regarding integrity and vampires.  The world is full of vampires and they will take everything from you that they can, except for one thing.  That one thing is your integrity, nobody can take that from you.  You can only choose to throw that away.

When I go back and read the earlier posts, there is no doubt that Joe is holding on tight to his integrity which is one of the main reason that I sought him out in the first place.  I was always able to get an honest opinion on anything, even if that meant he wasn't going to sell his own product as a result. I know that what he says is true and that means a lot in this world.

Then I read those posts again and contemplated the delivery of the message and how it seems rough and dominating at times which reminded me a lot like my drill instructors back when I was a naive 17 year old.  I sure didn't like the delivery then either, but they did so for a reason...a purpose that I didn't understand yet.

That purpose wasn't about them controlling or dominating anyone.  No, that purpose was to push us to achieve great things and to toughen us up to handle the rigors of military life.  We didn't understand those motives at the time, but those of us willing to fight through it, discovered that those drill instructors did us a huge favor and gave us the metal to meet any challenge.

When I read those posts again, I see that same drill instructor with his gruff ways as he trys to get a bunch of naive kids to toughen up and find their metal...to learn what they already learned the hard way.

Not everyone graduates from boot camp.  I went in with 147 guys and we graduated 92, the rest either washed out or quit to go back to their easier lives.  For those that did, we were better men for it.  There are going to be people that will not want to hear or fight through the message that Joe is presenting...that is to be expected.  Erik may have been one of them for now, it might still change.

When I go back and read those posts again, you can clearly see that Joe was giving strong advice that could save Erik and others from making a mistake by letting vampires take a good tool from them and destroying it like has happened so many times before in this industry.

Beer guy was a turning point for me (thanks for finding that video).  It reminded me that I have been going about this business the wrong way and I needed to return to the original purpose when I started.  I needed to stop following the same path that others have taken and to blaze my own course.  Yes, it isn't about the money, it should never have been, but it is easy to fall into that trap with all the vampires tempting you with their lies.  I guess Joe was hoping that Beer Guy would have had the same affect on others....maybe it still will.

Joe needs to be a part of this industry...to be a part of this board...to be a part of this revolution of real cleaners.  To remove that, would turn this into just another lost board talking about favorite presprays, so my vote is to keep him around.

One word of caution, however.  We also had a tradition called the bear pit in the Marines.  That is where people go to settle grievences that get out of hand to the point that it is detrimental to the rest of the platoon.  There, the parties will fight it out until exhausted or else someone is unconcious to prevent the platoon from falling apart by choosing sides.

If we can't have civillity on this board and it threatens to tear apart the platoon...so to speak...I will find us a sutiable bear pit and I have won many of them. 

You can have problems when a Manufacturer can control board content
this is so on all the other boards. The board mods are bought out with trinkets or free machines and products.

Or a spotter is given to be so called auctioned off and the money goes???? I also have a problem when a manufacturer comes here and contributes nothing but to promote his ( read my lips his non Myetey event)

As far as manufacturing goes I am as small as it gets. I will continue to support contests and help the cleaners here with technical problems.

In most cases I am just a phone call away.

The life and death of a message board is its mods imo. Much more than the posters.

When mods start pulling rank and picking sides because of their personal feelings, ex. deleting posts, I get lost.

I don't take myself seriously enough to get hurt feelings. I also have no respect for others that do.

I find TCL to be informative and entertaining.

My 2 cents. I did not read the posts just this one about the polling. In America we are supposed to have freedom of speech, are we not? If someone has a bad day and lets something  fly well that happens. Hopefully that person with straighten his actions out on the following day. If someone is purposely trying to harm with untrue accusations then the " pack" needs to deal with it to set that one straight. Im sure nothing was done hear that cant be fixed with some professionalism. And if someone did cross the line then maybe some others should contact that person privately and help lift that brother up.

Iv had times when I got the news that my brother was just murdered or another friend committed suicide or the stress of dealing with a dying parent. You just never know what the other guy may be going through to bring out their fangs. Id give most people the shirt off my back but under great stress you might think i was a real ...hole because of my reaction to the stress. It happens to all of us. Hope it gets worked out between these men.

I dont know who it was but give him another chance.

It's funny how 32% vote that they don't care on this poll. Kind of puts things in perspective