Water box not filling up

Mr. Ace Mechanic,
What would cause my water box not to fill up?

I checked my water box dema valve solenoid and filter, they were both good.
The water pressure from the house I was working at today was high. I've had this problem before, when the pressure is too high, it seems to mess with the dema solenoid opening properly. While working today, the water box would not fill up until I found a hose bib in the back of the house that had a ball valve attached to it that allowed me to adjust the outgoing pressure. The bad thing though, the pump ran dry several times as I tried other hose bibs before finding the one with the ball valve. I think the damage had been though, water started to weep behind the brass pump head which probably means my valves are toast. I had just replaced the low pressure seals, the high pressure ones were still good according to the mechanic that changed the low pressure ones.

My chemical draw is now nill as well.

Why would high water pressure from the house not allow the dema to open?

Should I buy a Watts regulator to install somewhere inline to make sure I get consistant pressure no matter what the house pressure is to prevent this from happening in the future?

I also have a soft water tank that I rent, could a bad tank mess with the in/out going pressure coming from the house?

I suspect, based on what you said about connecting to bib with ball valve and that making it flow, it's your 3/8" Male QD on your supply hose that you connect to the TM?.....assuming you use that for your connection??

If they are worn and rounded off on the male end, or the poppet is sacked out from age, it will not depress allowing flow into the female QD and ultimately into the water box.

Chk that and report back....

BTW what type of ?TM is it??

I don't have much experience with water boxes, but it sounds like you already know that you have a pressure sensative system. If you can, that psi regulator sounds like good insurance to me.

As for that softener, it could be part of the problem. I've seen some create loads of back pressure due to air pockets. Might want to bleed that off as well by opening the tank.

Wish I could be of more help, nobody likes to have the machine go off-line.

By the sounds of of it you have hit the nail on the head with the high pressure.
l am pretty sure dema valves work by allowing the water to flow thru a small hole which builds pressure on the other side of the valve to keep it closed. l assume that the high pressure is stopping the valve from opening. If the valve opens under normal pressure get psi regulator to control the pressure.

Let us know what you find out.

 

Dave, I have a Victory 47 from Powerclean, which I believe is AKA... a POS! I'm sure that's its technical name.

Actually, when its running good, its a pretty good machine. But I guess that's true with all TMs though. The problems always come in bunches.

Spent half a day on Fri. repairing the diverter solenoid. It wasn't closing the diverter all the way so I had very little heat. Got that running good, then my water box problem today. Last week it was my auto-pump out. And all of course, right in the middle of a job.

Sometimes I cringe when I turn the key on, wondering, what the hell is going to break today. The thing is, I take care of my machine. Other carpet cleaners think I have a new machine when its actually 9yrs. old.

Days like today make me want to just wrap up my hoses, drive the rig off a cliff and go to work for Home Depot in the Gardening Dept. selling gardenias to little old ladies.

Mark, we have all been there. For me it was an Apex unit, but any machine that isn't reliable is a liability to the business and your sanity. There comes a time when you need to find another machine and either make that one a back-up or an artificial reef  

I know money isn't always laying around for a new machine, but unless you can simplify that mount to make it reliable, it will drive you under. See if you can find a good back-up unit somewhere and start with that would be my advice.

mark d. wrote:Dave, I have a Victory 47 from Powerclean, which I believe is AKA... a POS! I'm sure that's its technical name.

Actually, when its running good, its a pretty good machine. But I guess that's true with all TMs though. The problems always come in bunches.

Spent half a day on Fri. repairing the diverter solenoid. It wasn't closing the diverter all the way so I had very little heat. Got that running good, then my water box problem today. Last week it was my auto-pump out. And all of course, right in the middle of a job.

Sometimes I cringe when I turn the key on, wondering, what the hell is going to break today. The thing is, I take care of my machine. Other carpet cleaners think I have a new machine when its actually 9yrs. old.

Days like today make me want to just wrap up my hoses, drive the rig off a cliff and go to work for Home Depot in the Gardening Dept. selling gardenias to little old ladies.

This is how I feel when I had my blueline thermalwave 2, it's the most pathetic $ 23k I've ever spent on a piece of sh*t of equipment, went back to Prochem and couldn't be happier, no more cringes when starting the machine cause I know it will ALWAYS start and they never break down on me while I'm working with meticulous maintenance of course, the only downsides are parts are super expensive and harder to get sometimes but I think that's a small price to pay for a peace of mind that you will always get the job done without interruptions and frustrations.
Regarding the water issue, sounds like everyone that commented already covering pretty much what I could think of, one last thing I could think of is a large piece of debris get stuck in the line, which is a long shot but considering I've seen some weird stuffs got stuck before, I wouldn't count that out as an impossible possibility.
Please let us know the issue if you find it to help others find a possible solutions if they have the same issue in the future.

I've not worked on a TM that uses a dema valve in the water Bx most use a float ball and valve or some of the older units used a Reid/finger switch to turn a solenoid valve on and off which high press may cause over flow but not any flow. But I agree if a press reg to control inlet press and it works then a cheap fix.
As for the chem draw problem and the leaking behind the pump head both are related to the high/low pressure seals I never change one and not the other it's already torn down labor cost is the same seals aren't that much more a good mech should explain that before doing the work if it is a cat pump my seal kit come with both high/low in kit

I'd love to hear back from the OP on this prob............on what he's found based on all the help/suggestions given here so far!   

First, I'd like to thank all who responded here with there suggestions. Here's an update on what's transpired over the last couple of days.

I definitely believe the high pressure from the house I was working at caused the water box not to work properly. The next day I hooked it up to my own house which has higher than normal pressure, but not nearly as much as the jobsite house, and the water box functioned normally, so it had to be the pressure that shut it down.

To avoid this problem from happening in the future, I installed a Watts pressure regulator in my water feed line before it enters the machine but after the soft water tank. The regulator is factory set at 50psi, but can be adjusted down to 15psi if need be.

The damage running the pump dry because of the box not filling was not good. It fried both the Hi and lo pressure seals. Upon taking the brass pump head off to change the seals, I saw that all three of my ceramic pistons were cracked, one of them, completely in half, so those were replaced.

Just for good measure, I'm exchanging my rented soft water tank in the morning.

Lesson learned: For those with pressure sensitive units like mine, spend the $65 on an in-line pressure regulator. Its an easy install and you can get them at Home Depot. That's cheaper than the $400 I spent repairing my pump.

My first job since the repairs will be tomorrow, so I hope all will go well. But its going to take a few repair-free days of work before my cringing goes away with the turn of the key.

Thanks for the update Mark hope all goes well tomorrow

mark d. wrote:
Lesson learned: For those with pressure sensitive units like mine,....................

And what "unit" would that be?!?!   

Probably too late here but I would just replace it with a mechanical float system. Easy to fix/trouble shoot and cheap to replace. Definitely keep the pressure regulator to avoid flooding out your van.

Sorry Mark
After rereading your post I realized you do have a solenoid valve.
There is one thing people miss on these valves if you look just below the solenoid there should be a Y connector with a nut in the Y side that is a filter screen use two wrenches one to hold the housing and remove the screen wouldn't be surprised if it was clogged. Good luck my friend

Davey, I have a Victory 47 from Powerclean, I answered that a few posts back when you asked the first time, maybe you missed it, no big. Thank you for your suggestion Dave on checking the water inlet 3/8" quick connect poppit. That's one that I would not have thought of. Many times its the small things like that that we overlook. I did check it after you suggested that and the quick connect was in good shape.

Mr. Ace Mechanic, yes, one of the first things I did was check the "Y" strainer, it was totally clear. I even took the dema solenoid apart to make sure it was clear of any debris, especially the small diaphram hole.

So far, everything is still pointing towards the high pressure coming from the jobsite house. But now that the pressure regulator I installed a few days ago is in, that should not be a problem anymore.... I hope!

A good thing that came from all this though, is that I found a place that sells Cat Pumps really cheap. I have a 3CP1120. It lists from most places I looked online from anywhere from $875 -$1052. But this one place I found sells them for $448!!! Its not refurbished either, they're brand new, right out of the box. They are an authorized Cat Pump Distributor. I saw a Cat 310 for $578. They have the seal and valve kits, ceramic pistons and mounting brackets as well, at really good prices. The name of the place is autowashonline.com, and as the name suggests, they sell car washing equipment. You can order online or call them directly at (800)395-2155. Not schilling, just passing on a good place to get Cat Pumps to my fellow carpet cleaners. Check them out!

Lets try this there is one other thing that is rare so much so I almost forgot it. Try changing the inlet hose from the front to the Y strainer on the unit. I have seen were the liner gets a tear inside and high pressure will cause it to push down and block flow, then when you check it you can't see it.cheap and worth a try.
Now the cat pump do you need ceramic plungers i may have some used ones here i have a 3cp that the housing leaks oil but the plunger are good.

Mark, Anytime you find a good deal on equipment shill all you want.

Mark, when it comes to pumps, I have always found the best deals at car washing outfitters (Kleen-rite, dultmeiers, etc.), but I wasn't aware of the one you found...thanks for sharing that one.

It does make you wonder why our industry charges a grand for the same pump when car wash guys get it for around half of that price? Never be afraid to look to other industries for items, there can be some real deals out there.

Just a follow up since all my repairs: Did my first job today since repairing the pump and installing the pressure regulator. The house I was at today also had very high pressure at the bib, but the pressure regulator did its job. The water box filled like its supposed to, the high pressure did not affect it at all. The pump worked great, the chemical feed was excellent, the diverter solenoid kept the temperature up (repaired that last week), and the auto-pump out performed flawlessly (repaired that last week as well), in fact, NOTHING broke today!!!

So..... this is what its like to clean carpet without having something break down! Hmmm!   


Milspec, yes it does make you wonder why most of our industry (distributors) gouges us end users like they do. I called and talked to one of the sales reps at Autowashonline to make sure the Cat pumps were not refurbished because I couldn't believe the price. He was aware how much the carpet cleaning industry was charging for the pumps and just couldn't believe how much they were marked up. I told him I was definitely going to get the word out to other carpet cleaners about their store.

Mark, could you please post a link or tell us what Pressure Regulator you installed?

Thanks!

Davey, sure can, here's the make, model, how much, and where I got it:

Make: "Zurn Wilkins" water pressure reducing valve (www.zurn.com)

Model: NR3XL 3/4" (I also had to buy two hose barb fittings so it could connect to my hose. 3/4" pipe thread at one end to screw into the reducer and 1/2" hose barb for the hose. I could not find a fitting in brass with those specs so I had to settle for nylon. But that should be fine since its not really high pressure. Also got two hose clamps. The pressure range for the reducer is adjustable from 15 to 75psi, but its factory set out of the box at 50psi so I left it at that setting. It has an intergrated strainer that's not removeable. The same reducer with removable water strainer was almost twice as much. I have a strainer inline on my hose already so that wasn't important to me. I installed it after the water softener as well so no hard water will pass thru it. There's an "arrow" stamped on the reducer for water flow direction, make sure that's pointed in the right direction.

Where to buy: Home Depot

How much:$59 + tax. Two hose barb fittings: $2.61 ea. Two hose clamps: .98 ea.

Hope that helps!

Nice work sourcing out the solution. Headache gone for less than $63 is getting off real cheap.

Glad to hear things are working correctly again.

My pressure regulator is $ 30 and it's screwed in between the quick connect and garden hose, no installation needed :-)