Another one of those "More heat questions"

Now that the winter freeze is here, there is always the yearly issue with wanting hotter cleaning water.  I thought about adding an LG heater last year, but don't really want to shoe-horn it into the van and mount a belly tank right now.  I really don't like flammable heaters in a crowded van, a box truck yes, but not a crowded van.

This year, I am thinking about trying a different approach.  I am thinking about adding an electric tankless heater just to pre-heat the water to my holding tank.  

Since the average ground water in this area is about 45 degrees, I am asking a lot from my Hx to get a good rise in temperature.  My Butler is an old unit, but during the summer it still gives me good heat at 210 degrees at the machine using fresh water at about 80 degrees.  During the winter....not so much and closer to 170 degrees.

So, I am wondering if pre-heating my tank to about 90-120 degrees would net me a faster rise like I get in the summer?

A small Bosch electric tankless heater is rated at a 45 degree rise up to a max temp of 120 degrees.  That should leave me with the 90 degrees that I am looking for.  Seems like a good way to get my heat up for less than $200.  If it works, it gets me Summer heat in Winter temps with minimal cost and no need to add a secondary fuel to the van.  Of course, there will be some temp loss en route to the job, but shouldn't be more than 10-15 degrees at the most on my short route.  Might even be able to plug it in at some of the larger commercial jobs, but would need a dedicated 30 amp outlet for that....might be a little risky to experiment.

Am I off my rocker here or does this make sense?

http://www.prowaterheatersupply.com/bosch-tronic-3000-us3-powerstream-pro-rp3p-point-of-use-electric-tankless-water-heater.html

IMO, not worth the PIB  factor.  Just figure out how to clean at 170,

(PIB factor = pain in the butt factor)

If your determined to get higher temps then 170, I would say go with something that has a much lower PIB factor. An in line electric heater , the kind used for potables. Just plug that in the nearest out let, run a small whip hose from your TM to the heater then run your solution line from the heater to the wand. If your feeding the heater with 170 water you will get 210 at the wand all day every day. 15 amp draw makes it realistic to run .


Another low PIB factor option,,, get a spliter so you can run 2 solution hoses, rout one in to your fresh tank and fire up the tm and let in recycle heated water thru your fresh tank while you pre vac, and get every thing set up, should bring the temps up enough to make a difference .

You know, I would never have thought about that splitter idea there Andy....that is a really cleaver idea. No electricity to deal with and no inline heater to catch fire either...winner.

Thanks!

also adding a post blower heater will raise the water temperature about 30 degrees

I would put an inverter in the van and an electric submersible heater, since your butler is a pto youll have the van running the whole time anyways... or just leave it on only when your driving.

This wont heat water super fast but if you have an onboard water tank you can easily raise your temps by a good amount.. not sure how much water you run through but you can pre heat the water overnight in the tank so its about 75 degrees or so the next day

I considered the tank heater, but access is difficult with the butler tanks and I can't see being practical. I am surprised butler didn't consider something like that, they seemed to have thought of everything else.

Just a thought, but could you on the metal fresh water tanks adapt it to use a heat element from a elect hot water heater to preheat the water just plug it in at night and heat to 90 to 100 degrees.

ACE Services wrote:Just a thought, but could you on the metal fresh water tanks adapt it to use a heat element from a elect hot water heater to preheat the water just plug it in at night and heat to 90 to 100 degrees.

That was the direction I was originally going, it even has an outlet installed for the APO available (not sure how many amps it really can handle). I'm just not sure if it would work.

Having the ability to heat the fresh water tank seems like such a good idea on a HX systems that operates in the colder parts of the world. It just might not be easy with these tanks. On an irrigation tank, I could drop in an immersion heater and be done, but not with this tank.

I will get a photo of it tonight when I get home to show you what I am talking about. I really want to find a way to make this work....I am already drawing up the splitter idea off the Hx suggestion.

can you access the tank to clean it out? seems like it couldnt be that hard to just drop a heater in and wire it to an inverter or to a battery

The thing you have to remember is you don't want it super hot. The seals in hp pump can only handle a set amount of heat if you look at flow diag the high heat and psi come off the Hx not from the pump directly.

ACpower1 wrote:can you access the tank to clean it out?     seems like it couldnt be that hard to just drop a heater in and wire it to an inverter or to a battery

Not really...it has an access port on top, but it is to access the float and is just a pipe opening really of about 2-3 inches. I can only see sending hot water in through the fill solenoid, so the options are short.

They are nice all SS tanks and cost almost 4k individually, but they sure leave you with limited options for this purpose. I think it will have to be a matter of heating the water after the softener and on to the tank....inline heater of some sort.

If the tank is SS, I would think it wouldn't be too difficult to cut a window in the top and make a seal-able door for it........but who knows for sure without being able to see it.

Interesting....and you are right, I need to put a photo up. I'm heading out there now as I can't find one on-line.

This is the tank....as you can see there is just a single cap on top (electric float) for access.  On the front is the red hat solenoid and drain valve, nothing else.



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http://www.hotheatexchangers.com/Products.html

gtech12v wrote:http://www.hotheatexchangers.com/Products.html

That sounds like a great solution, but it also brings up a point that I have always wondered about. I realize that the blower generates lots of heat (probably 250 degrees), but how much does it really generate during the winter when it is also sucking in air that is only in the single digits?

My Hx will get me 205 - 210 at the machine without using the blower for supplemental heat. IF the air is in the single digits, will the blower still run hotter than that? If not, it really doesn't generate any real heat improvements after the coolant Hx.

As a pre-heater mounted before the Hx, I can see where the benefit lies.....it is definitely on the list of suggestions to explore.

get the 12volt magic duck is small and you wil get 280 all the time any time
http://www.jcsscorp.com/powerline.html

The "duck" looked very interesting, but the price left me cold. I am looking for a booster for the winter months, paying close to 3k for it is not in my plans.

I should be able to get this done for less than $400...just not sure the direction yet.

Most of the prochem units use blower exhaust to heat their Hx and not engine exhaust. The older system they used a preheater after the blower and only turned it at 70% speed to make heat and it adds about 30-35 degrees to the unit.

30-35 degrees of free heat is pretty good.

milspec6 wrote:

gtech12v wrote:http://www.hotheatexchangers.com/Products.html

That sounds like a great solution, but it also brings up a point that I have always wondered about.  I realize that the blower generates lots of heat (probably 250 degrees), but how much does it really generate during the winter when it is also sucking in air that is only in the single digits?

My Hx will get me 205 - 210 at the machine without using the blower for supplemental heat.  IF the air is in the single digits, will the blower still run hotter than that?  If not, it really doesn't generate any real heat improvements after the coolant Hx.

As a pre-heater mounted before the Hx, I can see where the benefit lies.....it is definitely on the list of suggestions to explore.

all PTO's unit use the blower Hx after the water to water Hx ( hydra's Salsa , White Magic Vulcan and BUTLER MAXIMUM HEAT EXCHANGE SYSTEM) they all use this type because it works ask Mark Siegers he uses the butler's with the maximun option

Good point gtech....I will have to make a call next week and get more details.

Don't forget when you are using your unit you are not pulling single digit air. Your pulling inside air through your wand which is a restriction at the blower causing hot air exhaust. So when you are extracting you are heating.

ACE Services wrote:Don't forget when you are using your unit you are not pulling single digit air. Your pulling inside air through your wand which is a restriction at the blower causing hot air exhaust. So when you are extracting you are heating.

Great point the air entering the blower is from inside the place of work and not the cold air from outside

gtech12v wrote:

ACE Services wrote:Don't forget when you are using your unit you are not pulling single digit air. Your pulling inside air through your wand which is a restriction at the blower causing hot air exhaust. So when you are extracting you are heating.

Great point the air entering the blower is from inside the place of work and not the cold air from outside

Ah, smart people....I missed that completely.