Vackaway vs Bonnet Pro

It looks like Vackaway and Bonnet Pro have been battling it out on youtube. Steve Smith of Vackaway says that Bonnet Pro encap juice dries to a dirt attracting stick residue and will not shatter when vacuumed.

Bonnet Pro is claiming that vackaway encap is leaving dust in the carpet that becomes airborne. I don't think I saw John's dilution ratio of the Vackaway product and if he poured that bottle on the carpet that is not the way anyone applies encap.



 
Here's the Vackaway . Do you guys think a dish test is a valid test? Will it dry the same on carpet fibers?

As with nearly all advertising, they are both misleading in some ways. I do wish Vacaway would stop using petri dishes and appy it to the carpet instead. Then we would see if there is "sticky residue" or not.

Still, they are both unfair in my opinion, but that is most advertisement isn't it?

I would like to know if the products were used straight or RTU dilutions?

Also what's up with the hazmat suit in the vacaway video, I thought the new hot knife was a safe formula? lol

If used straight, both tests are flawed. The film former encap not diluted with water never really dries 100 percent, it stays a soft, thick snot like mix, not brittle dry.

When diluted it dries complete .

I don't trust either of these guys, If the bonnet pro video is true, and the encap go's air born that bad, no one should ever use it again. I haling plastic is not good for the lungs.

This sounds like a job for a Cleaners Lounge independent testing.

Milspec, you say unfair? I say dishonest.

To mean anything they need to state and prove dilution rate used during the testing.

But no they just expect know one will use critical thinking to find the flaws in there tests, Kinda like John G acting surprised that not everyone bows down to his so called NASA science .

These guys insult our intelligence on a daily basis, and frankly it piss's me off.

Andy Mc wrote:Milspec,   you say unfair?   I say dishonest.  

To mean anything they need to state and prove dilution rate used during the testing.  

But no they just expect know one will use critical thinking to find the flaws in there tests,    Kinda like John G  acting surprised that not everyone bows down to his so called NASA science .

These guys insult our intelligence on a daily basis, and frankly it piss's me off.

If anyone wanted to know. ^ this is what keeps me at the lounge. Memebers who aren't afraid to express what they believe to be the truth, coupled with some facts to back it.

Im still not sold on encap in general yet. To each their own but I cleaned my very own carpets with the strong dry system and they were dirty as hell about a week later.

Steam cleaned them with the new judson trying out the slop and gobble and they have been clean ever since.

I still think encap is better than a porty of course but I think it has nothing on high quality steam extraction

I dont do much commercial but I do still consider encap as a intermitten maintenance cleaning that can be done by any janitor with a floor buffer.

call me biased because we just bought another TM but im just giving you guys the honest down to earth feedback from seeing what it was like on my own carpets and watching them get dirty.

I have dogs, and we dont always take shoes off, but my traffic areas looked worse about a week to 2 weeks after the cleaning

Those videos are childish. Don't bother using a real life test, let's use some smoke, mirrors, hazmat suits, radiation protective gloves, and 1,000,000,000 candlelight powered spot lights instead. Give me a break!

ACpower1 wrote:Im still not sold on encap in general yet.     To each their own but I cleaned my very own carpets with the strong dry system and they were dirty as hell about a week later.

Steam cleaned them with the new judson trying out the slop and gobble and they have been clean ever since.

I still think encap is better than a porty of course but I think it has nothing on high quality steam extraction

I dont do much commercial but I do still consider encap as a intermitten maintenance cleaning that can be done by any janitor with a floor buffer.  

call me biased because we just bought another TM but im just giving you guys the honest down to earth feedback from seeing what it was like on my own carpets and watching them get dirty.

I have dogs,   and we dont always take shoes off,    but my traffic areas looked worse about a week to 2 weeks after the cleaning

I've been experimenting with encap now for about 6 years. Mostly because I see the potential that if it could work its benefits would be fantastic for carpet cleaners. Ridiculously low overhead and start up cost alone would be huge.

I've studied the films vs. crystals. Both have a place, but crystals have a ton more advantages.

Staight encap just doesn't work. Gotta have a bonnet for extraction. Terry cloth bonnets work, but you need a ton of them to do a job properly because the soil load is limited. Most bonnets just smear the dirt. Microfiber is the way to go.

Rotary machines are just too limited. Too much torque on one side, hard to get a consistent cleaning tracks. Plus, only about 3" of true scrubbing effort. Use a white bonnet on dirty carpet, make a couple of passes, and flip it over and notice the almost perfectly white, 8" circle in the middle.

I now maintain all of my janitorial accounts with encap. I let one go 3 years before I HWE'd it and still didn't have residue build up. Because I'm using crystalcap (I should copyright that) instead of film. Film has to be flushed 100% of the time. Its truly a maintenance product. A really good maintenance product, but doesn't replace HWE.

Unless you're going to get into a specific niche in your town, like high rises or assisted living facilities, just stick with HWE. It takes a lot of trial and error right now to do it effectively.

Ya I think it works for maintenance, but around here it is almost all done in house because the building can easily fit a buffer and some pads in their maintenance closet.

I think for residential where referrals and putting on a show for the customer matter the most it just doesnt have a place. Maybe post padding but thats it.

I just saw what it was like doing the crb encap on my own carpets, and personally from my experience I wont clean my own carpets with that method again so I really cant do it at customers homes.

Took 1 week and it looked terrible, dirtier than it was before.... Ive gone 2 years without doing my own house before and it never looked this bad.

We still love our strong dry and use it all the time cause it kicks so much ass for other tasks.

Don't keep up with all this stuff just keep pluggin away with mine.
Competitors steal my encap custys away with better value once you factor in free shipping.
I just keep sending cases til they go for the drum - low price, free shipping, time to pay - now that's real value. 

Proud of one of my oldest customers, just now getting into encap.  Tried the others then I offered mine,
He said "...didn't even know you made an incap."

turned it over to his unbiased - just interested in performance - techies, and they came wantying more of mine!
Whew Hoo!
"Hey Joe well my guys think that you're in cap Cleaner works better than the xxx cleaner. So could you please send me (2) cases of your incap Cleaner soils and oils."

Open minded-ness rules in the real world of real cleaner-ness.

He's recent switched to my SO for his Bob Evans accounts, said it works better than harsh  HM  powders.  He'll probly get the drum next.
Now he's getting into encap, you watch, he'll be getting a drum of SOE next.   

This invoice is from his latest tm purchase. See how he uses me for his accessories. Mark ain't no dummy.

"Staight encap just doesn't work. Gotta have a bonnet for extraction. Terry cloth bonnets work, but you need a ton of them to do a job properly because the soil load is limited. Most bonnets just smear the dirt. Microfiber is the way to go."

So did you get Judd's Ruff Rider Pads ready yet?
Start a silent Floater here cuz there's several real encap experts here who could help you get the final bugs worked out.
Then you'd be the king of extraction pads. We would all promote Judd!

Acpower.. of course it looked worse u didn't remove any soil u just smeared it around and then put a clear coat on top of it.
As straightedge above straight encap ain't gonna cut it especially on residential. That's why u need to use absorbent pads so u can remove dirt. But I'm with u hwe will whoop it all if done by a real cleaner.

A cotton will be more absorbent than a microfiber pad.

So Joe does Soils and Oils become airborne like Bonnet Pro showed in the video?

Yes it does.

Also note:

The samples weren't  soiled  to begin with, else the 8oz crystallizing side wouldn't still be white.  It would be grayish like vacuum cleaner dust shows it to be after post vacuuming.

Yes, post vacuuming is part of the cleaning process when doing any encapsulation type cleaning.
Leave it to the homeowner or janitor, but crystallizing encaps release just as the first video shows.
At 8oz/gal I dare say that carpet would have been post vacuumed right after cleaning for there would still be a dingy look of soiling on the carpet.
With encap cleaning, the vacuum cleaner becomes the wand, effectively lifting the encapsulated soils off the fiber, leaving it cleaner.
The newer types of absorbent pads you guys talk about today would have the same effect, but vacuuming is still part of the job if you ask me.
The first video does an excellent job of showing that even at a high concentration, the crystallizing type encap polymer, even without soil, after a light post vacuuming, showed a high % of the polymer had been released from the fiber; at least I didn't see any dust after the post vac. So what's the point?

Sticky type polymers on the other hand don't release near as well during post vacuuming. Is that the point?  Wasn't the first video produced by the guy on the right?
If so, I'd say he shot his own foot. 
Sticky polymers are there longer and attract new soil just as the second video shows.

The polymers on the right adhere to the fiber. That's why they didn't become airborne in the first video.
Do you want polymers to stick to anything? Won't they also be sticky to new soils & oils?


Crystallizing type polymers seem to have a greater static charge than sticky ones do; this can be shown in the lab and on the fiber.  Crsytallized fibers just stay clean longer.  At least that's what I saw in my testing. More Fluorine ions (huge negative charge, thus more apt to repel negatively charged soils) than sticky types.


Seems like the first video wanted to make a big deal about the dust. I was waiting for some claim as to health hazard of crystallizing type encap polymers but there was no evidence shown of this. 
In my own experience, these types of polymers are considered inert chemically in the dry state. That means non chemically reactive Non allergenic, hypogenic, etc. Basically harmless.
Very persistant yes (they've found these types of polymers in the blood of bald Eagles in the middle of Canda) but harmless healthwise.  So what's the point?  
Video1 did nothing but remind me to remind you guys to post vacuum if you want to sell encap cleaning.


Another point not mentioned in either video is cost.
My cost analysis showed that crystallizing type polymers were more expensive than the sticky types which makes sense in light of its superior performance. 
That's exactly what I saw in my testing of several supposedly top quality encap products.


I totally agree about the carcinogen mentioned; one of the reasons I got away from nasty solvents.
There are plenty of safe alternatives; just as the end of the first video showed.   

In fact SOE mixed strong will pass those tests shown too, the marker and the grease. Let's see those stains set for a couple years and a housewife using Resolve or water based spotters.

Now let me sell you guys on my SOE, Soils and Oils Encap Cleaner:

SOE is DfE recognized. No solvents. no carcinogens. No hazardous chemicals.
Each and every ingredient in SOE was evaluated for Health, safety and performance.
Every ingredient in SOE is recognized as DfE Safe including the encapsulating polymer which happens to be the crystallizing type. 
So SOE gets to display the DfE logo whereas most other encap products don't.
And SOE cleans right up there with the best of them, yet none of these 'best' are also DfE Safe.
Of course most guys are looking at performance only and without the toxic chemicals SOE falls a little short, but not by much.
I claim SOE mixed strong cleans right up there with the very best. Even Steve Smith himself tested SOE and said it "kicks ass at 7-8 oz/gal."

So the crystallizing polymers in particular, a majority ingredient in SOE were deemed a safe ingredient by the DfE. 
SOE cleans as good as any other encap product.
SOE leaves an embrittling type residue that releases real well with subsequent vacuuming.
SOE is Woolsafe which few other encap products are.
SOE is peroxide stable which means you can add liquid peroxide without damaging its chemistry/efficacy.
SOE is the most economical of all encap cleaners at the drum level pricing.
SOE makes a great spotter, especially suited as a give-away spotter, safe to use around people and pets.

Wow thanks for that in depth explanation Joe.

That is the value to good communication. Sometimes we get all wrapped up in the videos trying to show something when it can be more helpful to have someone explain it....especially if those videos are a little "misleading" at times.

Hey Joe! You got any drum SOE buyers yet?

I am one almost ready for my second drum of S/O/E and my commercial accounts really liked it how it clean and stay cleaner longer.

But no they just expect know one will use critical thinking to find the flaws in there tests, Kinda like John G acting surprised that not everyone bows down to his so called NASA science .
Argue with NASA not me, we have the ATP testing, the Microscope testing, the pre and post vacuum testing and you have what? Just a lot to say with nothing to back it up, you simply don't want to get it, so you don't.

I think for residential where referrals and putting on a show for the customer matter the most it just doesnt have a place. Maybe post padding but thats it.

I think after many years of doing just that, that you are dead wrong, first off if post padding is important, WHY is so much soil left behind from HWE?

Acpower.. of course it looked worse u didn't remove any soil u just smeared it around and then put a clear coat on top of it.
As straightedge above straight encap ain't gonna cut it especially on residential. That's why u need to use absorbent pads so u can remove dirt. But I'm with u hwe will whoop it all if done by a real cleaner.
Funny how 100's of professional Tm users would disagree with that statement.. if you see encapping as smearing and a clear coat, then obviously you don't even understand the method you are talking about.

John Geurkink wrote:But no they just expect know one will use critical thinking to find the flaws in there tests, Kinda like John G acting surprised that not everyone bows down to his so called NASA science .
Argue with NASA not me, we have the ATP testing, the Microscope testing, the pre and post vacuum testing and you have what? Just a lot to say with nothing to back it up, you simply don't want to get it, so you don't.

I think for residential where referrals and putting on a show for the customer matter the most it just doesnt have a place. Maybe post padding but thats it.

I think after many years of doing just that, that you are dead wrong, first off if post padding is important, WHY is so much soil left behind from HWE?

Acpower.. of course it looked worse u didn't remove any soil u just smeared it around and then put a clear coat on top of it.
As straightedge above straight encap ain't gonna cut it especially on residential. That's why u need to use absorbent pads so u can remove dirt. But I'm with u hwe will whoop it all if done by a real cleaner.
Funny how 100's of professional Tm users would disagree with that statement.. if you see encapping as smearing and a clear coat, then obviously you don't even understand the method you are talking about.

I'm with ya John!

Stay around and just educate. That's what The cleaners lounge is about. People like you, equipped with testing and results to clear the fog on something that is new to many cleaners. Which "new" means the need for people like you to share and educate your finds.

You have the products you developed. Talk about them, and why they work. Talk about the great qualities. Talk about the benefits.

I for one know very little about the subject and absorb it all like a sponge.

By all means stay in the conversation.

Hi John, Just a quick reply to this statement of yours

"Argue with NASA not me, we have the ATP testing, the Microscope testing, the pre and post vacuum testing and you have what? Just a lot to say with nothing to back it up, you simply don't want to get it, so you don't."

Point one, Did NASA do this test, or did you do it??

Point two, What do I have to back my opinions? I have several years experience with both methods, I have made several solid points to back up my opinions, (in previous conversations) you have yet to address them, or convince me I'm wrong. ( that's fine. ) so I see no need to rehash the debate, just go's in circles.

Point 3 I bare you no malice, I simply don't buy your testing results, I see for my self every day the opposite.

Point 4, some will buy in to your testing, I bare them no malice either, I just think they are wrong.

so much dirt left behind from hwe?   what kind of hwe are you used to just wondering?  

u honestly think when you have massive soil loads rubbing a pad on the carpet is the best way to go?  how many pads do you go through?

so then how about light soiling?    how is steam extraction leaving dirt behind in a light soiling condition?  

how much hair and sand and other debris are you pulling from a pad?  

you can pre vac to your hearts content and youll still get fuzz and hair in the filter right?>   where does that stuff go when you buff the carpet with a pad?

this is the oldest argument in the industry...   encap guys comparing encap to low quality soak the carpet extraction,   and hwe guys comparing it to surface buffing.

encap works no doubt,    but its not worth 100/hr or 200/hr,   thats why in commercial situations its worth like .08 cents a sq ft


on a super small scale, as soon as you have soil covering a pad and you continue to buff it on the carpet, your smearing dirt around.


also think about this in the most simple basic terms ever.  

what do you clean without water?  

your hair?   your car?   your driveway?    your clothes?  (dry cleaning thats it,  only because they cant handle the moisture)  

your teeth?    your dog?    

everything is cleaned with water

We are getting off-topic here. This thread was about the comparison of 2 competing encap formulas, but we are gravitating to the old hwe vs encap debate.

I think John needs to redirect this towards those tests that he presented, especially en light of the comments by Joe...which I am in agreement with at this time and would like to see John's counter.

If we can focus on VLM without trying to throw HWE under the bus, I think we can get more accomplished. I have a very tough time accepting that VLM can duplicate / improve over HWE performance on badly soiled carpets, but I will listen to the whole argument. Just keep it fair and honest.

I was just responding to what he quoted from me. oldest debate ever, it works good, we encap certain situations, but to say HWE is garbage is the dumbest thing