Vackaway vs Bonnet Pro

I know, I wasn't calling anyone out on it, I just didn't want us to miss the heart of the thread by stepping into the old debate.

VLM / Encap works great under the right conditions

HWE works great under the right conditions

Rotaries over wands under the right conditions

Rip and replace over cleaning under the right conditions

The key is being the professional who knows how to select and deploy the right tool and right method for the task at hand. It never makes sense to me to attack any tool or method in blanket language, not if you have been educated on the pros / cons of them.

AcPower says "I think for residential where referrals and putting on a show for the customer matter the most it just doesnt have a place. Maybe post padding but thats it."


I agree 100%,

Milspec, the point to made is relevant to the thread topic,

(Supplier testing) testing by biased suppliers who have a stake in the results, should be questioned and challenged,

Anyway the thread has run it's course and is dead , why not let the conversation mutate in to other areas? I say keep the discussion open, and let freedom ring,

BTW, Milspec. No one has made the argument that VLM doesn't work, or that is has no place in a guy's tool box,

so I don't know why you feel the need to speak as though someone had made that argument.

I recently used VLM on a big gulp drink spill in an office area. Used two different types of VLM application, two different types of Encap. Both failed miserably!

First application. Cimex with fiber pads and releaseit at 8 oz a gallon. No good

Second application, Bonnet pro encap, 8 oz per gallon surround, and a cotton bonnet. No good

Third time, HWE with soils and oils, rotary extraction. Bingo! Never went back.

All three were speed dried.

I'm still a sceptic for the bad stuff.

Andy Mc wrote:BTW, Milspec.    No one has made the argument that VLM doesn't work, or that is has no place in a guy's tool box,  

so I don't know why you feel the need to speak as though someone had made that argument.

The thread was comparing crystal vs film products and it progressed to a discussion about VLM potential on heavily soiled carpets vs HWE. It has been a good discussion, it is just one that often happens when a VLM topic is started and I was hoping we could focus on the crystal vs film....or actually, on the testing methods being used by those 2 companies.

I agree, nobody made the claim that VLM doesn't work and I wasn't accusing anyone of that, I was just trying to nudge things back to the starting topic. The comments mentioned regarding the VLM limits on removing sand and fuzz and there were comments on how VLM lead to re-soiling faster in a members home, so I was just joining the stance that every tool, chemical, or method has its place and it is up to the cleaner to choose accordingly.

Nobody is threatening to shut down the thread and you can converse on it all that you want and in any direction that you want. I am just waiting to hear John's response to Joe's posting on his film-based encap product and was hoping to nudge it back into that direction.

I've always found it humorous how cleaners claim that they tried a method, it failed, therefore it doesn't work, leaving out the actual probability that they just don't really know how to do it properly or effectively.

I call that Ignorant Arrogance. I don't know how to do something, therefore it can't be done!

No one will grow a business with that mentality.

And there is also the possibility that after several years of experience with one method , it's weakness' are discovered,

there fore 2 choice's lays in front,

Either remain a delusional one method die hard, or look for a better way.

All due respect, years of experience means next to nothing really. In any field of expertise, accurate knowledge outweighs all other factors.

Who Is the judge as to what conclusions are accurate or not?
If you have any examples of "inaccurate conclusions " then bring them up and lets discuss. ,

"Who" is the judge? That's the problem with most boards, cleaners appoint themselves as judge. "If I can't do it, it can't be done! GUILTY!"

The real judge, and only judge, is the Honorable End Result.

I know you guys say I did my encap wrong when I cleaned my own house with it...   but I used the strong dry method.... pre vac,    pre sprayed encap,   crb,    waited for it to dry then post vac...    

usually our encaping is cotton pads,   pre vac,  spray encap,   pad it....  works pretty good

way better than hauling a cold water porty,   we do an office this way every 4 months  

did I miss a step that is crucial to having drastically different results?   just curious

Try a microfiber bonnet under an OP in place of the CRB. I've found that the end result is much better when removing as much soil as possible initially instead of hoping it will vacuum up when dry.

I've not found any encap yet that will completely come clean by vacuuming. Straight encap, from my experience, is maintenance only. Gotta HWE it eventually.

ya I feel its maintenance only, which is why it kinda bugs me when they bash steam cleaning.


anyways back on topic unless its completely dead.... sorry again for the derail

REALCLEAN wrote:All due respect, years of experience means next to nothing really.  In any field of expertise, accurate knowledge outweighs all other factors.

Man, if that ain't the Truth!!    

I know a guy in this biz that knows it all because he's "been in it for 27 years". But the reality is he only knows what he learned 25 or so years ago when he quit being teachable.........Some of us know how much this biz has changed in the last 20+ years!!   

And just the opposite, for a good example look at Ryan, I think he's been around about 5 or so years, and is a wealth of knowledge!   

You guys are right,
my opinions based on my worthless experience, are invalid, VLM has no limits, just that I failed to master the method.

We should listen to Ryan instead. Sorry , my bad.

Falicy based arguments,,, in this case, making a vague statement that is sometimes true, but most often not true, and aiming it at no one in particular, but just implying it.

that way no one can respond. kinda like a sniper hiding in the bushes a mile away firing shots, no one knows where the shots are coming from, so no one can fire back, just have to take the beating. In this case an implied insult but not direct,

This is a classic debating fallacy known as..

Cherry picking (suppressed evidence, incomplete evidence) – act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.

Thought-terminating cliché – a commonly used phrase, sometimes passing as folk wisdom, used to quell cognitive dissonance, conceal lack of thought-entertainment, move onto other topics etc. but in any case, end the debate with a cliche—not a point.

Andy Mc wrote:You guys are right,  
my opinions based on my worthless experience, are invalid,    VLM has no limits,  just that I failed to master the method.

 We should listen to Ryan instead.   Sorry ,  my bad.

Andy, I think you bring a wealth of experience and CURRENT knowledge from the VLM world. No one was taking a shot at ya. More over, we need more of you field experience in this topic. Stay in this topic!


How should we develop or test these findings or concepts?

Dave, was just saying how one can submerge themselves in educational info and be worlds ahead of ones who mastered the trade years ago and refused to evolve in today's industry.

Nice points brought up by everyone, heres my 2 cents.

Atleast 95% of jobs can be cleaned to an excellent standard with either method.

Sometimes extraction is better, or atleast faster in a small % of cases. Otherwise VLM is faster and higher profit.

A tiny % of jobs can be done better with VLM (wickers)

Having both is best because you have flexibility. Also the customer can choose if they prefer a certain method.

There will always be different opinions on VLM/HWE. Some would even argue VLM doesnt use less moisture well er thats probally one thing we can all agree on

Over 30 years in business, I have not stopped learning yet, that's why I am always on the best carpet cleaning forum there is- The Lounge.
When a customer says to me " doesn't Steam cleaning over wet" or I like the " dry in an hour method". I always tell them this- " It's not the method or the detergents, it's the technician performing the work. The success or failure of any cleaning method is determined by the diligence and education of the person performing it. End of story.