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DAmn drive clutch!

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:10 pm

So, you think a good HVAC shop would be a better place than a radiator shop or traditional welder?
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by Freemind1 on Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:22 pm

@milspec6 wrote:That is what I am hoping for Freemind since it is not part of the continuous coil and is just a straight piece.  The problem is that it gets my hopes up which has not worked out well the past 48 hours.

In all seriousness, they can take off that whole chunk that is expanded/blown out, and replace it with new hard copper pipe, and silver solder it in.

I can see that myself from your pics.

I could easily do it for you, but I don't have the supplies nor am I close to Nebraska.

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by Freemind1 on Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:24 pm

Commercial HVAC guys do this silver solder/hard copper pipe all the time.

In commercial refrigeration that is about all they use.

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:25 pm

Thanks...I might finally be able to get to sleep now with less worry.

There might be hope yet of salvaging the theater jobs. Cool
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by Davey Cracker on Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:33 pm

@milspec6 wrote:Now that I have sat there staring at this coil assembly, maybe it can be fixed?

The affected section is actually a welded span instead of the continuous copper coil that makes up the rest of the assembly.  So, if it could be added that way at the factory, maybe it can be segmented with a new span now?  There was no other visible damage anywhere.




There is nothing more I can do until the welder looks at it tomorrow anyway, so that will be the end of my day.  

Great it's in a spot where you have easy access, and can repaired no problem! Very Happy


From the looks of it, I''m 99.9% sure it has already been worked on/repaired, at the vertical pipe connecting neck to drain (with the bulges top and bottom), and where it failed this time......That from the factory is one solid piece from neck to drain, rather than a stub on neck and drain, with a spliced in piece like what's in there now.

I suspect a couple things from seeing that picture....

First, it looks to me like the person that did that repair flared the ends of the Donner pipe to create a slip fit over the stubs where the old was was cut out, making the donner easier to get in there and to solder it together, also by doing it that was he avoiding having to cut and shape ends of the donner pipe like would be needed if replacing it whole.....Also, when he flared the pipe like than it made it weaker in those areas giving it a spot to burst this time when it froze or was over pressured.

I'd say easy at home fix with a nice hot mapp gas torch or oxy and acetylene if you have it. I've sweated a lot of copper doing plumbing work and re-piping my house, so when the need came up to repair my LG coil the first time I went for it and was able to get years more use out of it. Since then I've repaired a couple of my coils, a few times, and a friends 3-4 times, and all have held up.

So Rob if I can help you out somehow just ask, PM me or call me.........pretty sure you have my number, if not I can PM to you.

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:54 pm

Damn, I was worried about that those bulges, but thought maybe it was the way it was built at the factory instead of a weakness.  Now I regret doing what I did.

No welder, HVAC, nor radiator shops in my area had the time to touch it until next week.  Obviously, that wasn't going to help.  The people at LG were great about offering their advice on how to repair it, but they didn't have the picture to reference.

I ended up doing it myself with a borrowed torch.  I sand blasted the area and then tapped down the rupture until flush again.  Applied my flux and applied the silver solder until I had good flow and coverage.

You are correct about there being a repair next to it, once I applied heat, it started to flow as well, so I had to repair both cracks.  In the end, the coverage is good, but I don't trust it now that you told me about the factory design not having those flared ends.

Maybe it holds for awhile?  I only need it to hold for 600 psi max, but that might be beyond the strength of that thin copper wall.  Damn, I thought I was in the clear and ready to re-install. Poor baby

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:23 pm

Does anyone know what grade of copper I would need to replace that section properly?

I guess I will need to look for that NorthStar Heater tomorrow and figure out how to adapt it to my system. Otherwise, I will need to find the proper grade of tubing / pipe for this project and try a better repair.

I just hate the idea of re-installing this thing and having it rupture again Sunday or Monday nights. I can't handle that kick to the nuts again.

Just not sure what to do right now. LG could repair it, but I would be down for another week and I can't reschedule these jobs. Too much money on the table and too many repair questions at the same time.
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by ACE Services on Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:16 pm

As for the copper pipe you need to be sure that you use rigid copper pipe not the softer copper that comes in a roll. Couple of splice fittings and wield it in.
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:27 pm

Will that kind of pipe hold a lot of pressure?

The repair on there is rigid pipe....although weakened by the flares.
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by Mark D on Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:52 pm

You can heat up the flared /swollen area and cover that entire area with silver solder. Give it a good coating. It will be as strong or stronger than new pipe.

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:10 pm

Interesting idea.....didn't think about that.

I decided that the only way to know if it will work is to just try it.  So, I put it back together and installed it back on the truck.  I even took some time to re-insulate the box, change all the screws to ss, and even cleaned the burner jets.

I will try it in the morning....the insulation turned out to be fiberglass and I was elbow deep in there, so a hot shower is in order.  If it holds tomorrow, great, I will keep my fingers crossed and run low psi (350 maybe) to get through the jobs.

If it blows, I am going to see if they have another NorthStar Heater at the store.  It will allow me a little time to rig it up and get it on the truck before Sunday night.  I really hope that will not be the case.



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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by dp1 on Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:19 pm

This thread makes me think, there may be only a few guys participating here but all of us knows our stuffs, well except me I guess, lol.
Good luck Rob, I know your pain, whenever I have issues with my machine and thought that I fixed it, I always doubt myself, is it going to hold up at the job, I don't think I hate anything more than breaking down at the job site.
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:32 pm

I am the same way DP and is why I am such a stickler about going over my "pre-flight" checklists and maintenance routines.  Still, we run a business that relies on high psi, water, and heat so things are going to go wrong eventually.

I at least feel better enough to go for a run after feeling sick for the last couple of days.  This stress has been killing me!

I did ask a neighbor of mine about the repair.  He used to work on P51 Mustangs for an vintage club and is a pretty darn good engineer.  He looked at it and said that he would have done the same thing on his own pressure washer, but also said that he wouldn't trust it for very long.
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by ACE Services on Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:56 pm

Looks good to me. I have a small torch set I use to make small wields on dehumidifiers map gas and oxygen tank. Had a customer call he had a similar situation few weeks ago. He asked me to try and repair it even though I had never done that kind of repair I did it filled the coils with water let it set overnight with no leaks. He reinstalled the coils and have been working fine so far. I'm sure yours will be able to do the work no problem.
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by Mo on Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:06 pm

You can probably just get a new coil for 1k
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:16 pm

LG will actually repair and pressure test them for $250. I don't know what the shipping cost are, but it sounds like a bargain to me.

Thanks ACE, I am really starting to feel better after all this support. The analyst in me always tends to worry about everything too damn much. I will sleep good tonight and hope for the best in the morning.

By the end of next week, the Butler should be repaired and I will be fully operational again. If I get through these 2 theaters, I will still be able to salvage this month with a little luck.
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:06 pm

The heater coil is holding.....but there is another problem.

I fired it up this morning and set the psi at 400. It ran for about 10 minutes and no leaks found.

The problem now is the psi of the water. I set it at 400 psi, but when triggered on a 12 flow wand, it drops to to under 300 psi and then up to 450 when I let off of it. The psi just isn't running steadily and will fluctuate with the trigger open from 240 on up to 350.

On my 4 flow stair tool, the pressure holds okay, but all my wands are 8-12 flow and even the 8 flow seems to cause a problem. There also seems to be a lot of pulsation in the line running off the pump.

So, what is next?

1. It is a Cat 3Cp1120 which is a 4.2 gpm so that should be enough flow
2. The psi regulator handle doesn't have much tension from wide open to closed. It responds to adjustments, but in large jumps.
3. Low Psi Seals maybe? Machine is rarely used....could have dried up?
4. Plumbing? The TM lines are all 1/4 psi hoses.
5. Could it be a scale issue in a pump?

I am worn out now. One thing after another on this one and repairs on a weekend will be difficult regarding parts. I have pump seals for a 435 pump, but I will have to see if they are the same...might get lucky there.

Regulator?? Not sure if I can find one on the weekend.

RE-plumb with 3/8 hose might be possible if I can find the right fittings, but it will be unlikely.

If I had a set of smaller jets I might try that, but everything that I run are 02 jets and have been for years.

Anything jump out as the likely issue?
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by ACE Services on Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:14 pm

Check any filters /screens between water inlet and low pressure inlet at the pump. Sounds like pump is starving for water when you put a demand for water.
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:23 pm

Thanks ACE....I am starting to wonder if that RV antifreeze might have gummed up the valves?

Do you think running descaler through it might help?
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by Davey Cracker on Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:26 pm

I agree with Eddie, sounds like a classic example of not enough water by the way you get big drop when keying wand, and also the pulsation.

The good thing is, it's probably nothing more than air in the system from opening it up to remove heater, and the heater also being dry..........so just fire it back up, and let it run with wand keyed, it should stabilize, unless something in this heater repair process developed an air leak on the inlet side, like a lose or cracked brass fitting, so check that too.

Rob, PM sent!........

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:10 pm

I had to rush out and take care of my Mother who fell down her steps, so I wasn't able to work on the TM any more. I do agree with the theory about low inlet water and I think that I know why.

We have been having problems with our municiple water due to drought conditions. We get a lot of rust in our water right now to the point that you have to run your washer once through before you can do laundry.

As a result, I have a filter attached to my garden hose to keep the problem out of my machines, but it also impedes the water by quite a bit. It takes twice as long to fill my fresh tanks and I had the hose connected directly to the TNT instead of the tank.......the flow may not have been enough to keep the water box properly filled above the inlet.

I will check all of this stuff in the morning, but come Monday, I think I will still re-plumb everything to 3/8 hoses and replace the seals on the pump just to make me happy.

Bottom line is that I think I will still be able to clean those Theaters yet.
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by Mark D on Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:19 pm

Hope your Mom is OK!

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:15 pm

Thanks Mark, she is, just sprained her ankle leaving the house. With my Father in the nursing home, there was nobody there to help.
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by Mo on Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:15 pm

Keep plowing brother there's a light at the end of the tunnel
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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

Post by milspec6 on Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:32 pm

@Mo wrote:Keep plowing brother there's a light at the end of the tunnel

With my luck......

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Re: DAmn drive clutch!

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